My dear friends we are getting so close to the end! Only a few more posts until the conclusion of this book, and I. Cannot. Wait. It’s too much suspense for one poor reader.
This week in Reading The Wheel of Time we are going to cover Chapters 46 and 47, which are slower chapters after all the terrifying adventure in the Ways. But I found them a particular pleasure to read nonetheless; there’s some really tight and beautiful narration, we get some backstory for Lan, and most importantly: I was right about Padan Fain!
Leaving the Waygate, Rand and company find themselves in Shienar, in the Borderlands. There are rolling hills and mostly dead trees, a few of which are even split open as if struck by lightning. Lan explains that in the area, it can get so cold that the sap of the tree actually freezes, causing the tree to burst. Mat complains of the winter cold, but Lan assures him that this weather is a fine spring.
They pass farmhouses, all empty and abandoned, although Nynaeve and Egwene observe that the residents can’t have been gone long, given the evidence of spring curtains in the windows. Perrin agrees, noticing a scythe left out that isn’t rusted enough to have been in the elements long. Rand is perplexed by this, as the tool is too far away from them to see the blade with such detail.
Rand tries again to suggest that Nynaeve and Egwene don’t have to come into the Blight, but Loial and Nynaeve both remind him that they are part of events now, part of the Pattern as much as Rand is. Rand starts to try to explain, but Nynaeve cuts him off. She tells Rand that if the three of them, whom she calls boys but then corrects herself to men, will go into the Blight and face the Father of Lies, can she and Egwene really do any different? She rides off, Mat in awe of being called a man by the Wisdom, of all people, while Egwene rides up to Rand and quietly explains that she only danced with Aram, and asks if he would hold that against her. Rand says of course he wouldn’t, but he wonders why Egwene would bring that up now, and remembers Min telling him that they are not for each other, not in the way they both want.
They reach Fal Dara, and Rand notices the practicality of the walls of the city, built for one purpose, to hold. Moiraine and Lan push back their hoods, and Lan explains that no man is allowed to hide his face inside the walls of Fal Dara. Mat makes a joke, asking if they are all so good-looking, but Lan only replies that a Fade can’t hide with his face exposed.
As they ride through the gates, men at arms cry out to them, calling Lan “Dai Shan” and asking about the Golden Crane, while others, to the Ogier’s surprise and pleasure, greet Loial as well with shouts of “Glory to the Builders!” Inside, they discover what happened to the residents of all the abandoned farms; they are in Fal Dara, camped in the streets wherever they can find room with their wagons of possessions, livestock, and children. In contrast to the noisy crowds of Caemlyn, these refugees are silent and weary, watching the party pass with emotionless or haunted expressions.
Lan leads them to the center fortress, an imposing place surrounded by a moat filled with spikes, and into the courtyard, which is filled with men and horses in armor and weapons makers hard at work. Their horses are taken, and they are escorted to the chambers of Lord Agelmar by a man who Lan calls Ingtar. Agelmar, Moiraine, and Lan greet each other formally, but Rand can tell that they are old friends. Agelmar also greets Loial with what is clearly an Ogier formality.
As they begin talking, Agelmar entreats Moiraine and Lan to ride into battle with the soldiers of Fal Dara, who are to ride to Tarwin’s Gap to hold back the Trollocs. When Lan inquires as to their chances, Agelmar answers that the civilians will be evacuated to the capital, and even then he seems worried that Fal Moran won’t hold, either. He explains that the Trolloc raids lasted all through the winter, which is highly unusual. Every city in the Borderlands fears that a great attack is coming out of the Blight and that it is aimed at them, so Shienar cannot raise any help, and will ride into the Gap to fight even though they will be outnumbered ten-to-one. He begs Lan to ride with them, insisting that the banner of the Golden Crane, of the Diademed Battle Lord of Malkier, will bring others to rally around it. Lan is so distressed he actually crumples his silver goblet in his fist, but despite Agelmar’s repeated pleas, refuses. He says that he serves Tar Valon now, and is bound into the Blight. Agelmar asks Moiraine as well, and when she, too, insists that she has her own errand to fulfill, Agelmar offers her a company of men to escort her, saying that he hopes to at least make a difference in her errand, giving her powerful warriors to defend her in the Blight rather than the green youths he takes the Emond’s Fielders to be. But Moiraine and Lan explain that warriors will only attract attention and that the Green Man will not show himself if even one member of the party seeks glory or has impure motivations. They argue in circles for a bit, but eventually Agelmar realizes that Moiraine and Lan will not budge, and he gives in.
With the serious matters settled, Lord Agelmar plays host to the party, and everyone talks and eats, and Agelmar even breaks out some tabac from the Two Rivers. As he, Lan, and Loial smoke, Agelmar asks the Ogier what is troubling him, and Loial admits that he is troubled that there is no remnant of Mafal Dadaranell in the city. Agelmar answers that everything was destroyed in the Trolloc Wars, and since the people who remained did not have the skill to replicated Ogier stonework, they did not try to.
“Perhaps we wished to avoid a poor imitation that would only have been an ever-present reminder to us of what we had lost. There is a different beauty in simplicity, in a single line placed just so, a single flower among the rocks. The harshness of the stone makes the flower more precious. We try not to dwell too much on what is gone. The strongest heart will break under that strain.”
“The rose petal floats on water,” Lan recited softly. “The kingfisher flashes above the pond. Life and beauty swirl in the midst of death.”
“Yes,” Agelmar said. “Yes. That one has always symbolized the whole of it to me, too.” The two men bowed their heads to one another.
Poetry out of Lan? The man was like an onion; every time Rand thought he knew something about the Warder, he discovered another layer underneath.
Loial nodded slowly. “Perhaps I also dwell too much on what is gone. And yet, the groves were beautiful.” But he was looking at the stark room as if seeing it anew, and suddenly finding things worth seeing.
Just then, Ingtar arrives and tells Agelmar that a madman was caught trying to scale the walls of the city. Agelmar orders that the man be brought to him at once, and Moiraine says that she would also like to be present. They bring the man in, dressed in tatters and utterly filthy, giving off a rancid smell as well, but as soon as he speaks, the Emond’s Fielders all recognize him. It is Padan Fain, the peddler.
Fain is acting very strangely; at one moment he’s sniveling and begging for clemency, saying that he didn’t want to do it but “he made me! Him and his burning eyes,” and talking about being forced to be “his” hound, but the next moment he is standing tall and speaking in a commanding though differential way to Lord Agelmar, claiming that his rags are a disguise because he is being hunted, and offering Agelmar a way to defeat Trollocs which only Fain knows. Although Agelmar is derisive that the peddler’s claims importance and a secret to defeating the Dark One, Fain continues to wheedle and insist until Moiraine stands and approaches him, at which point he falls back into his whimpering, cringing attitude. Moiraine tells Agelmar that he is “…more than a peddler… less than human, worse than vile, and more dangerous than you can possibly imagine.” She and Lan have Fain taken away so that Moiraine can question him.
Everyone else has to wait for Moiraine to be done questioning Fain. While Rand paces and Perrin crushes his food into little crumbs and Mat occasionally touches the dagger beneath his cloak, as he began to do as soon as Fain arrived, Loial examines the stonework of the walls and Lord Agelmar talks quietly with Nynaeve and Egwene. Rand stops to listen to their conversation as Egwene asks Agelmar about Lan, the title of “Dai Shan”, and the Golden Crane banner that the men of Fal Dara keep mentioning, as well as the Seven Towers that she once heard Moiraine mention. Agelmar tells them the story of Lan’s heritage, how his father was al’Akir Mandragoran, King of Malkier, who was betrayed by his brother’s wife, who convinced her husband to lead an army into the Blight where he died, after which she turned on the King, saying that his refusal to send his own army was what led to her husband’s death. Together she and al’Akir’s rival, Cowin Fairheart, plotted to seize the throne, drawing men away from the defenses and leaving Malkier open to Trolloc invasion. For Cowin was also a Darkfriend, and Malkier was overrun. When they realized there was no hope left, the King and Queen of Malkier sent away their son Lan, still just a baby, and gave him the sword of the Malkieri kings, which he still wears.
They anointed his head with oil, naming him Dai Shan, a Diademed Battle Lord, and consecrated him as the next King of the Malkieri, and in his name they swore the ancient oath of Malkieri kings and queens.” Agelmar’s face hardened, and he spoke the words as if he, too, had sworn that oath, or one much similar. “To stand against the Shadow so long as iron is hard and stone abides. To defend the Malkieri while one drop of blood remains. To avenge what cannot be defended.”
They gave the baby to a group of bodyguards who fought their way to safety. Lan was raised in Fal Moran, learning the art of war and how to survive in the Blight, unable to defend the lost lands of Malkier, held by the Trollocs until the Blight swallowed it, but still able to avenge it. But Lan denies his titles because he will not lead others to their deaths. Agelmar tells them that no one in the world would be more able to take them into the Blight and bring them back out again.
Nynaeve seems the most struck by all this information, but before anyone can say anything, Moiraine and Lan return. Moiraine has had servants bring her hot water and soap and she begins scrubbing as she explains what she has learned. She says that Fain has been a Darkfriend for more than forty years, but worse, that he was brought to Shayol Ghul and made into the Dark One’s hound, changed fundamentally with torture and other methods that Moiraine clearly does not want to describe, to be able to hunt the boys. He was chosen for where he did his peddling, and for three years sought to narrow down their location, helped along by having his memory and senses “distilled” each year in Shayol Ghul. Eventually he knew that one of the three boys was the one he was searching for. He was told in a dream to return to Emond’s Field and meet with a Fade there, to let the Trollocs in through the Waygate that once stood in the groves of Manetheren.
Fain followed them, manhandled by Trollocs and Fades all the way to Shadar Logoth, where Moiraine’s false trail fooled the other servants of the Dark One but not Fain’s special tracking ability. It took a while but eventually a few of the Fades began to believe Fain’s claims and those were the ones who turned back to search the abandoned city. But when Mashadar took out the Trollocs and Fades, Fain was able to escape from them. He hoped to escape the servants and the Dark One as well, no longer wishing to serve even despite the rewards he was promised, but the compulsion to hunt the boys would not leave him or lessen at all. He hunted them through Caemlyn, and even through the Ways, and when he was caught by the Black Wind some of the voices recognized him as one of their own, while others feared him. He was let go, and followed them to the very walls of Fal Dara. Even in his cell, Moiriane says, his head would turn as if unknowing, in the direction of the room where Rand, Mat, and Perrin waited.
The knowledge Moiraine has gained from Fain proves to her beyond anything else how dangerous their situation is. It shows the progression of the Dark One’s strengthening abilities; how 3 years ago he had to have a Darkfriend brought to Shayol Ghul to touch him, but now he can even reach those who are still in the Light in their dreams, and that he can project an image of his mind, though wavy and faint, to be visible to those who stand in Shayol Ghul. This, she tells Lord Agelmar and the others, is more dangerous than every Trolloc hoard combined, because it shows how desperately the seals binding the Dark One are weakening.
Realizing the true desperation of their situation, Agelmar asks one more time if Moiraine will accept soldiers from him to help her fight what he calls the true battle. Again she refuses, explaining that it must be the boys, and for a moment Agelmar fears that she is suggesting that they are male Aes Sedai. She explains the ta’veren, how their very presence and effect on the Pattern might change the outcome of events in favor of the Light, and how they are of the old blood of Manetheren.
Agelmar says that he would not doubt the old blood, and is finally mollified. Moiraine says they must get a little sleep, and that the young men must sleep close to her, because time is too short to allow the Dark One another strike at them. Rand can feel her studying him, and the words “too short” stay in his mind.
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Wait.
Wait wait wait, is Padan Fain a Darkfriend/hound and possessed by Mordeth? Am I totally out in left field right now? Hard to imagine that someone who was under the influence (I was going to say protection here but protection is about the last thing Ba’alzamon provides even to his followers) of the Dark One could have room for any other taint, and I would expect Moiraine to have caught something like that, but then again, she does say that she thinks Fain is hiding something. The way that he talks to Agelmar is the biggest red flag for me here; he goes from whimpering and begging to standing tall and promising the Lord of Fal Dara that he alone has the secret to defeating the Trollocs and even the Dark One himself. That sounds like Mordeth’s rise to power in Aridhol to me! It seems very odd that the terrified Fain would take such a tack, and even if the answer was that his mind had been damaged by what has been done to him, where would he come up with a personality that insists on being an important weapon against the Dark One? If he was alternating between groveling and claiming that Ba’alzamon forced him and then standing tall and mocking them that the Dark One would kill them all, that would make sense. But this doesn’t.
Even the Black Wind treats Fain like he’s two people. Moiraine says that some of the voices welcomed him as one of their own while others feared him, but since we don’t know what the Black Wind is, or even how it would react to, say, a Fade, that information is only of limited usefulness. My personal inclination is to think of the Black Wind as an entity unto itself, not a product of Ba’alzamon’s taint, or at least so far removed as to be unrecognizable to the Dark One, and vice versa. If Fain was possessed by Mordeth, the Black Wind might might recognize the hungry, destructive force of Mashadar as similar to itself, and it’s possible that the corruption of Fain’s soul might make it unpalatable even to Machin Shin.
I feel like I’m either right on the money here or so completely off-base it’s ridiculous. And I don’t mind telling you, dear readers, that I have never been so tempted to look up spoilers as I am right now! I’ve been waiting so long to have my Padan Fain theories confirmed and yet this one question still hangs over my head! But I will restrain myself—after all, I don’t want to take the wrong lessons from Mat.
Getting away from my Padan Fain dilemma and back to the beginning of the recap, there are a lot of beautiful details in Chapter 46. I included that whole passage of the discussion between Agelmar, Loial, and Lan about the rebuilding of the walls not so much because of its importance to the plot but because I think the message, or lesson if you will, fits really well with the overall tone and structure of the narration of this chapter. The description of the split tree, for example, gives the reader a very evocative idea of the landscape and weather much more cleanly than a long description would have. I have noticed that Jordan tends to favor both types of narration at different points, some descriptions will be really long and involved, others will be clever little gems like the bit about the tree or the spring curtains in the windows of the abandoned farms. I also very much enjoyed Mat’s little joke about everyone in Fal Dara not wearing their hoods because they’re all so good looking—it’s funny and cute, not culturally insensitive really, and for once the reason it was a bit inappropriate wasn’t so obvious you kinda want to pinch him. Lan didn’t seem amused, but I can imagine some citizens of the city finding that quip very funny.
I’m not quite sure of the way Jordan is stretching out the mystery of Perrin’s change for Rand and Mat. I get that Perrin’s not keen to talk about or embrace his new status as a Wolfbrother, but given that Lan, Moiraine, and Egwene already know all about it, and Nynaeve half-knows about it, and his eyes are a different color, it seems like he should just round it all out by explaining the basics to everyone. Also from a narrative point of view, it’s kind of weird to spend time with Rand repeatedly wondering what’s up with Perrin. We the reader know what it is, and there’s not really enough high stakes in a reveal to keep us in any kind of suspense about it.
But we do get Lan’s backstory! As the heroic Aragorn of our group, it only makes sense that Lan is a displaced king haunted by the duties he cannot perform and unsure if he can or should take up the mantle of that old title. Way back in the beginning of the Read I complained about how all the heroes appear to come from humble origins but then they are inevitably secret princes or of special blood or reincarnated heroes, and how I wasn’t sure how much I liked that idea. But the thing I do like about Lan being a dispossessed king is how his status as Warder affects how he feels about his heritage. Although the need to avenge and protect remains, I’d love to know more about how Lan feels personally about his status. If Malkier were avenged or restored, would Lan want to return to it? Or does his personal loyalty, his sense of purpose, belong so heavily to Tar Valon that nothing could shake it? How does his heritage relate him to other Warders who perhaps come from humbler origins?
Epic fantasy often contains kingdoms and governments that are at least loosely based on Western medieval history, but because it is fantasy, it usually glorifies royalty, nobility, and bloodlines in a highly unrealistic way; a tack that has come under a lot of criticism lately for its problematic nature and ubiquity. I think these concerns are warranted and always more diversity is needed, but one thing I personally enjoy about medieval-style epic fantasy kings and royals is the focus on duty. Like Aragorn, Lan is a servant of people, of the Light, a protector figure whose focus is always on others, never on himself. And whether he is serving Moiraine and Tar Valon or avenging Malkier in the Blight, that remains true. And those are always heroes that I love dearly.
Next week Lan gets to put those Blight-navigating skills to good use, we get more really interesting description of the land, and we get to meet the Green Man. I didn’t get around to touching on Moiraine’s comments in Chapter 47 about need and intent being the key to finding the Green Man, so we’ll talk about that, too.
So how did I do in my Padan Fain theories? Feel free to, you know, not tell me down in the comments below!
Sylas K Barrett is a little confused. Lan is like an onion? I thought ogres Ogiers were like onions?
*cackles*
What? I’m not allowed to actually say anything.
Something might make flowers grow where he cultivates only dust and stones, but Spoilers…
I would say, and this is not a spoiler, that Lan’s loyalty is not so much to Tar Valon, but rather to Moiraine, specifically.
@3 zdrakec
I agree. And I think that most warders also feel that their duty is to their Aes Sedai first and the Tower a distant second. In fact,\ I think that sets the foundation for the disaster after Siuan is deposed. Gawyn and his Younglings, not actually being warders, are loyal to the Tower, but the warders are loyal to their Aes Sedai. \
In my mind, Lan’s nobility is centered in his faithfulness to his oaths/willing bonding to Moirane.
As always, nice job Silas. Can’t help you evaluate your Fain guesswork because SPOILERS, sorry.
I hadn’t realized from other reads that Agelmar is also a Dai Shan. I wonder how localized that is – have to see as we go forward whether Dai Shan is used to reflect battle lords outside of Shienar and Malkier, and how senior one has to be to earn the title. Agelmar is a Lord, not a King, so it is not limited to kings (or uncrowned kings, for that matter.)
I love how Lan and Moiraine have visited sufficiently frequently to know every leading warrior in the Fal Dara castle.
I always enjoy the Japanese vibe given off by Shienar, with the warriors with top knots in their hair and Lan’s citation of a haiku type nature poem well known to Agelmar.
I love that Moiraine says most of the boys are the true blood of Manatheren – implicitly acknowledging that one might have other origins. EDIT adding the quote: “The old blood,” Moiraine said, “split out like a river breaking into a thousand times a thousand streams, but sometimes streams join together to make a river again. The old blood of Manetheren is strong and pure in almost all these young men. Can you doubt the strength of Manetheren’s blood, Lord Agelmar?”
How did you do with your Padan Fain theories? Wish I could say!
“…it seems like he should just round it all out by explaining the basics to everyone”
Would he really just come out and say something? Look at it from Perrin’s view. He grew up in a farming community where wolves are a dangerous problem (best case) or servants for the Dark One (worst case). And now he can talk to them. See like them. Smell like them. Is that something he would tell everyone about?
Compare to our current society where people will hide their sexual orientation, depression, etc. from friends and family and those topics are much more accepted than “talks to wolves” in WoT land.
As regards Padan Fain:
Anyway, about your comments on fantasy heroes and the like being from royalty and the like, it’s one that usually bugs me. In the case of WoT however, The Pattern as mentioned earlier on sometimes spits out ta’veren and well, what good is a ta’veren if he or she isn’t able to bring big guns to the game? They bend the world around them, and being the one guy to unite Randland (like Artur Hawkwing) is going to take someone of special status.
Or they may just be common villagers from a forgotten kingdom like Manetheren, a nation mostly forgotten in its own land but whose memory is revered in the borderlands like Shienar. While the people of the land may have forgotten, the memories of the people at the edge of The Blight remember, and it confers a lot of respect towards people from that long fallen kingdom.
The thing is, Robert Jordan–at least in my opinion–took that trope of “the hero(es)=lost/forgotten/disguised royalty” and gives it reason: The Wheel Turns and Ages come and go and return while the Dark one tries to impose His will and destroy everything while The Creator has set things up so that humanity and Time itself have a way to fight back. It’s not a game of Craps, it’s Chess played in 4 or 5 dimensions. It’s a LONG game, and some pieces will be more important than others. Mind you a pawn can advance and become a knight or bishop or queen. And any of them can be taken out of the picture. I think as you go through the series you’ll see this chess thing play out more. Or maybe it’s all just in my head.
@8: Well and thoughtfully put.
@zdrakec (#3) and @whitespine (#4) and incurablyGeek (#5) That was definitely my impression about Lan’s loyalties, that they were to Moirane specifically. I don’t know any other Warders yet so I can’t analyze things very deeply, but it makes sense that a personal guard would be focused solely on the person they are guarding. Warders serve their Aes Sedai, and the Aes Sedai serve Tar Valon.
Ooh, but if Nynaeve becomes an Aes Sedai, does that make her and Lan’s romantic thing a conflict of interest? He already belongs to another Aes Sedai!
“getting so close to the end!” lol… However, thinking back 14 books, a short story and almost a decade of my life, I was also a little anxious to be done with the first book myself. Interesting ideas you have going on there, Sylas. Keep at it.
The Wheel of Time may ultimately be the best series on my bookshelf. I both love it and hate it. Love it, because it is singularly one of the greatest book series ever written, hate it, because it set too high a standard- now I can hardly find anything worthwhile to read. Still, I’m glad the wheel is still turning for new readers today. Without any spoilers let me bow out with this…
“Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time…”
@RobMRobM (#6) Yeah it took me reading parts of the chapter over a couple times before I was sure I understood what the title really meant; on the first pass I thought Dai Shan was just a general term like “lord” or “sire.” When Rand or the pov character doesn’t know what titles mean it can get a little harder to parse through the narration.
Ooh, I missed that she phrased it that way! So cool.
Here’s the thing about Padan Fain: He really ought to be played by Brad Pitt channeling his 12 monkeys vibe if they ever get around to making a film out of this.
@skockie (#8) That makes total sense. Maybe he’ll feel a bit differently when everyone else is “out” Nynaeve about her abilities and Rand about being the Dragon? I mean, Mat is half-possessed by a cursed dagger, no one has anything to feel bad about anymore. ;-)
It has been discussed in the comments sections in other weeks how the theme of mistrust keeps coming up in WoT, and I think it’s mostly my instinct as a reader wanting to scream at everyone to confide in each other. Plus Perrin’s ability is so cool from our perspective, even if it isn’t from his.
@burog25c (#9) I agree. ta’veren might be the best deus ex machina device I have ever encountered, if it’s even fair to call it that. It’s fascinating to discover.
@DarkX (#12) Even as I was writing those words I was thinking to myself, can I even put the word end knowing how much more there is to come?
#16 Sylas
First off as a first time reader you are doing this WoT thing a lot deeper than I did however many years ago. But then we are a bit different. You’re into actually analyzing stuff like this, whereas I’m an avid reader but it takes me some time to digest the point.
Trust me on this: twists and turns abound. As other commenters have posted, you’ve been awesome and distilling some things based on other series, but a couple of times (which I won’t mention) I feel you are wrong, and there are times you’ve been nibbling the bait but haven’t grabbed the hook yet.
But anything as massive as this series is going to be personal for each reader. I’ve done a lot of online back and forth with people who love characters I hate, who feel meh about points in the story that I loved.
But I do believe that ta’veren is one of the best D-E-M devices around; the people in the story don’t always get to choose their fate.
And as an aside, Padan Fain:…………………………..
Well Sylas, until now our young protagonists hadn’t encountered other cultures than their own and the rest of Andor’s (i.e. your typical vanilla medeival european).
What did you think of their first taste of other cultures and traditions.
The Shienaran culture and customs is just the 2nd of MANY other new that will be featured in later books (the 1st being the Tuatha’an). We have also gotten a little taste of the Children of light and and maybe the Ogier.
Wait until you meet
the Amadicians, the Domani, the Cairhiens, the Illianers, the Murandians, the Saldeans, the Kandori, the Taraboners, the Tairens, the Mayenes, the Aes Sedai, the Aiel, the Sea folk, the Seanchan, and some others.
“…wanting to scream at everyone to confide in each other….”
Hehehe! Buckle up, that feeling will be with you for a while.
About fictional heroes and heroines always having glorious (but masked before being revealed) ancestry – I think that does not detract very much from almost any reader’s ability to identify with the character. I think almost ANY reader can find some connection to glorious ancestry, either as an individual or as a member of a group (e.g. Menetheren) with a glorious past.
After all, you have LOTS of ancestors: 2^n in the nth generation. So, go back 10 generations and there are 1000 of them; 20 generations gives you a million! And almost every ethnic group or nation has had an episode of either dominance or heroic struggle at some point in the past.
So the message is that the potential for heroism is in all of us, and it’s up to individuals to develop and use it when circumstances make heroism necessary. Fiction gives us a model for understanding this.
@11 The “conflict of interest” – I don’t think it’s a spoiler to say that you can assume that Jordan will address this at some point :D
Hi friends!
So we’ve been getting questions about pointing out things that I may have missed in the chapters. I say go for it! We’re doing our best to avoid spoilers, but as long as it doesn’t give away future events that Jordan later explains clearly to the reader, I’d love to have your input. It’s one of my favorite parts of doing the read, actually, when someone points something out in the comments and then we can chat about it.
Just a reminder while we’re here (although y’all have already been doing a great job with this). Feel free to have spoilery discussions in the comments section as well, just make sure to hide anything that would give too much away to me or any other first time readers that may be following along. Make whatever portion of the text that might contain spoiler white, and put the little // secret secret, look how wrong Sylas was in that guess, haha // around it so other commenters know where to highlight over to read your thoughts.
Thanks!
@burog35c (#17) It has been very interesting reading slowly too! I usually am gobbling books up, rather than taking them in 2-4 chapter sections and then stopping to think about it. I was a little worried when I started to read that I’d get too impatient, but actually it’s been wonderful to really take time to sit with the story.
Nibbling at the bait, I love that. I bet I could read WoT quite a few times before I’ve caught everything. :-)
@tomas (#18) Actually, one of my big complaints right now is that I don’t get to see more of Shienar, and get more of the characters’ reactions to it. I’ve started into doing the post for next week and it’s like, woosh off to the next setting. What we have seen of Shienar is so tantalizing.
The idea of a city that is sort of constantly under siege is a really interesting one, with the emphasis on the functionality that Rand notices, as well as Loial’s lesson in understanding the beauty of simplicity. Also Agelmar’s skill as a host, while not necessarily directly from Shienarian custom, gave the culture a very grounded feeling, I thought.
The Ogier are a fascinating culture, too! Right now I am mostly enjoying the ent-like feeling of Loial’s perspective; humans are so hasty and have such short memories, etc, but then by the standards of his own people he’s that way, too. The detail in of how the language sounding like low-voiced birds singing was a beautiful one, and seemed so interesting when paired with the natural, vine-like description of Ogier script.
Gotta say those commas are quite intriguing. I am looking forward to it!
And the relationship between Warder and Aes Sedai can very much be described as one of ownership. I’ll be interested in that conversation as you learn more about it.
And here’s our first glimpse of the Borderlands. Those are something really special. We will of course see more of the Borderlands in the series, but the basic facts have already been mentioned.
In the southern lands, the Trolloc Wars are history as distant as the Roman Empire is to us, and the War of the Shadow is a legend from the Age of Legends. Less educated people might not even really believe in Trollocs. The Borderlanders have been at war with the Trollocs pretty much constantly for almost 3000 years. The southern lands have warred among each other at times, and have had periods of peace in between. In the Borderlands the only enemy is the Shadow, and “peace” is an expletive. Their societies are built for defense above all, and their entire culture revolves around indomitable resistance to the Shadow. I find the concept fascinating.
I’m not categorically interested in characters like Lan (or Aragorn). But when I learned that he learned the Blight “as other children their mother’s garden,” I suddenly craved the details of his backstory and everything he knew about the Blight. ///I crave Isam’s backstory even more. I want a books of stories about their separate upbringing, burn it!///
I also wished we had gotten to watch some of Fain’s travels with Shadowspawn thus far, not just hear about them briefly from Moiraine afterward. PRIORITIES, JORDAN. *sulk*
Actually, I probably wouldn’t be so obsessed with the Blight and Shadowspawn if Jordan hadn’t given us just the right amount of information to intrigue me and leave me with countless unanswered questions. I ought to congratulate him for being so able to tantalize, but griping is more fun.
Moiraine says many of the Shadowspawn in Shadar Logoth were killed by Mashadar “and other things.” WHAT OTHER THINGS??
I like the little detail with the curtains and scythe. It may serve primarily to remind us/hint to Rand about Perrin’s sharpened vision and poke fun at the things ‘only women notice,’ but it’s the kind of semi-mundane worldbuilding that can make me love to read about a story’s setting.
To the Blight, to the Blight, to the BlightBlightBlight! *wriggles*
Spoilers:
///No, Nynaeve, this isn’t “as dead as the Blasted Lands.” You haven’t seen the Blasted Lands. Not that I’ll ever see much of them either.///
///Hi, Ingtar. Give me your backstory.///
///I guess 2/3 can be “most of” if Moiraine is able to put it that way. Weird.///
///Hey characters, Ba’alzamon isn’t the Dark One! Argh.///
///Could someone please tell me why in Aginor’s name the Shadowspawn armies, now and in the Trolloc Wars, keep funneling through Tarwin’s Gap at the far eastern end of the border (west of the Aiel Waste)? The gap is “a pass that marks the boundaries between the Mountains of Dhoom and the Spine of the World,” but there have been raids all over the Borderlands and camps unusually near the border. Are the raids just supplying an army in the mountains that has to then go through Tarwin’s Gap for…some reason…and attack…something? I generally pay no attention to this kind of thing, except when Shadowspawn are involved (or it’s A Song of Ice and Fire), so I’m inexperienced in thinking about it.///
@26 – It’s not just the less educated among the Southerners who don’t believe Trollocs or any other Shadowspawn exist.
@27 – I agree about Lan and other Malkieri. Novellas or short stories about the history of Malkier would have been awesome.
@@@@@ 28
Spoilers:
I think the vast majority of Trollocs live beyond the Mountains of Doom, so smaller parties can traverse it but armies need to use the Gap, as you guessed.
@28 – To echo Valan’s comment // small raiding parties can come through the mountains on trails. But large armies can’t. They need a gap in the ranges //
Sylas-
great read, as always. However, if you’re already frustrated by characters’ lack of communication, we’re in for a loooooot of frustration. Just saying…
There are a lot of locales that we don’t get to see enough of in the series. I think Shienar is one of them. That said, the feeling that there is so much more depth to be plumbed gives the story a feeling of reality. It’s one of Jordan’s greatest strengths as a writer.
I know it’s ridiculous, but I’ve always seen Lan as more of a Samurai Chuck Norris than an Aragorn. The parallels with Aragorn are obvious, but Aragorn’s story is all about letting his leadership shine. And that’s not Lan’s story.
More societal disfunction as the other border monarchs won’t trust Shienar and its scouts enough to send reinforcements. Totally believable, but makes you want to shake someone.
We do get to see/hear/read more about Shienar later, so your wish to know more will be fulfilled!
Just not in this book.
I do love that, after you get, say, three or more books in, you can start recognizing where different characters come from because of the clothes they wear, or their hairstyles (the Shienarans and their topknots), or their speech pattern. It’s really fascinating to me that I can tell Tariens apart from Andorans, Illianers, and Domani easier than I can tell apart people in the real world.
With regard to how Lan feels personally about his status… there was an entire prequel book which was basically about that. Not sure if you’re planning on reading New Spring, or where you’d plan to slot it in a read-through — part of New Spring was released in an anthology after Path of Daggers’ publication; while the full novella was published after Crossroads of Twilight.
The shorter version of New Spring isn’t really a part of the longer one. The story is an expansion of a scene in the second book in the main series, and the book version is an expansion of the story.
I don’t know about a movie, but plans are already in the works for an animated series I believe. It is going to be a Netflix special or something like that.
@38 Brian
It’s in development as a live action tv-series for Amazon prime.
It’s not greenlit yet, but in development.
You can find out more about it on http://www.wheeloftime.tv/ as well as some other places.
If it’s greenlit it will be a lot of money poured into it. Amazon just bought the rights and are producing a LOTR tv-series that’s set before the events of LOTR. They bought the Tolkien rights for 250 million dollars and the series is expected to cost around 1 billion dollars The word is that the potential WoT-series would have a production budget of at least half a billion dollars.
As I said, it’s not greenlit yet, so we’ll see what happens.
Spoilers about Perrin: I can’t remember but does Perrin ever tell Rand or Mat about being a wolfbrother?
@40:
I don’t think so. To my knowledge, the only person Perrin tells, ever, is Faile. Just like Mat never tells anyone about how he gets awesome at military tactics. Not once. Never. And neither would I, about any of it. Its not anybody’s business but theirs, and their spouses.
@38 and 39. “You can find out more about it on http://www.wheeloftime.tv/ as well as some other places.” Other places discussing the state of the WoT TV series include an article on this very Tor.com site from yesterday afternoon. Nice timing on that.
@41
Actually Perrin does tell Ingtar, and at some point Gaul or maybe Gaul just figures it out and rolls with it, and I want to say that he does tell Rand, but not much and he does it all off screen in aCoS. But I could be wrong about that. But I do know that at one point in LoC Rand corners Mat and makes him talk but again it occurs off screen so how much Rand knows is debatable.
@41 – Rand figured out enough about Mat to have a good idea of what happened, i.e. the way he had Lan set Mat up in FoH to get his battle input.
Also at 41: \\Mat tells B irgitte most of it after she calls him out on it while they’re getting hammered at a bar. “Speak we what language, Sounder of the Horn”\\
@33 You could say we don’t see enough of most of the borderland nations. Their fault for having their act together I suppose.
You know, seeing the Borderlands and getting more tidbits about Manetheren, and especially seeing how much the Borderlanders respect Manetheren, really makes me interested in more details about that fallen kingdom. One of the best shortcuts to getting a reader’s respect is having someone that the reader respects in turn admire another thing. //We get a few, but I really think that Perrin’s story had a lot of lost potential. He kowtowed to Andor without much resistance despite having done more for the region than Andor ever did and despite Andor having no legitimate claim to authority (arguably anywhere, but at a minimum in the Two Rivers and Ghealdan). The people clearly wanted independence and a revival of Manetheren, and Perrin sold them out without a second thought. I rather hope that Andor experiences a successful rebellion under Perrin’s successor.//
//Perrin tells his army about the wolves, I think it is before the trial.//
@ALL:
Huh, well, I’d have to look it all up to be sure. I wasn’t trying to imply people didn’t figure it out, just that they didn’t say it outright. And for us to know that someone said something “offscreen” we would have to have a POV in someone’s head that was remembering the conversation.
@30,31: ///That’s flaming weird. The Blasted Lands offer even less sustenance than the Blight, and are father from Borderland food sources. And it messes with my headcanons. *sulk*///
I’m surprised that no one here has made what i found to be a obvious LotR comparison: that of Fain to Gollum. These chapters in particular are rich with Tolkien-esque references. Shienar to Gondor, Aglemar to Boromir, the Blight to Mordor, etc.
We do learn a lot about Lan here. I know you’re proceeding in order of the books published but reading New Spring, the prequel, adds much more to understanding the relationship between he and Moirain as well as he and the borderlands, and the Blight.
I’m always amazed at how much you pick up for a first read. I didn’t catch a lot of these details until the third or fourth go.
@Porphyrogenitus (#47): Perrin successfully averted a war between Andor and the Two Rivers. He knew that all nations needed to stand united against the Shadow, and he’s not a person who enjoys conflicts anyway. Elayne and the others in the meeting also wanted to avoid a war, so there were favorable conditions for constructive negotiations. They negotiated a solution that formalized the autonomy that the Two Rivers already had in practice, while maintaining Andor’s image as a strong state. Then they could fight the Last Battle together instead of fighting each other. Anyone who isn’t satisfied with that solution is probably a darkfriend sowing discord to divide and conquer in the name of the Dark One.
@50
//This difficulty in travel also explains why the waygate that the party used is so dangerous to Shienar. It offers the darkspawn a (relatively) safe and rapid path behind all of the defenses, both natural and man-made. Tarwin’s Gap is great and all, but only if you can hold it with confidence that you won’t be attacked in the rear. If the waygate remains in play, then the gap turns into a Thermopylae and the borderlanders get surrounded and wiped out.//
Great job as always Sylas. I don’t have a whole lot to add as most comments cover what I can bring up. Their are two things that I would like to comment on. @12 DarkX, If you want quality fantasy, Brandon Sanderson (kinda obvious), Tad Williams, Steven Erikson and Ian Esselmont, Terrys Goodkind,Brooks, and Pratchet just to tip the ice berg. Number two is it seems some commenters can read white-out sections and have spoiler discussions while I get blank space even when someone comments on my post.
@6 RubHRubH, don’t you hate it when your name is spelled incorrectly? I know I do.
/back to lurking…
@54 – When I read the post on my iPad, white-out comments are just blank space. When I read the post on a desktop (I don’t have a laptop, so I can’t speak to that), I can highlight and read the white-out comments.
@56 – on a mobile device I can do the tap-and-hold gesture to start selecting text for copy and paste, then drag the endpoints across the white-out section to read it. I don’t have an iPad, but it works on my Android phone.
@56 & 57 –
When I read on my iPad, I copy the whited out text and paste it into the Notes app. A little cumbersome perhaps, but I can’t stand to miss out on the spoiler chats!!
@55 Gold I liner – did I do that to you (before this)? Just curious….If so, mea culpa.
@59 RodNRodN, nope not me.. I’m being offended (tongue in cheek) on behalf of Sylas :)
btw.. I always enjoy your posts (other than the name thingy)
@60 – Ah….now I know Y you commented.
@warderwannabe (#15) Oh yes, I forgot I wanted to talk about the Gollum parallel! ! I made a joke about that in last week’s read when I was still just guessing that it was Fain following them in the Ways. The fact that Fain was tortured in Shayol Ghul in order to give him his ability and compulsion to track the boys makes that comparison all the more apt, since Gollum was also tortured in Mordor for his knowledge about the one ring, and then purposefully set loose so that he could be followed to it.
I think the comparison of Aglemar to Boromir is an interesting one. I felt really bad for Agelmar working so hard to convince Lan or Moiraine to help him, or to let him help them. It’s not his fault he doesn’t know all the secret things that they know, and he was just doing the best he could to his own abilities. And he is about to take his soldiers to what is almost definitely going to be their doom. He handles it pretty well though, and his learned and courteous nature also reminds me of Faramir. I hope we see more of him.
@62 Gollum was purposefully set loose so that he could be followed to it? Well they did a piss poor job following him…
warderwannabe @54- New Spring confirms the existence of Black Ajah, so shouldn’t be read in chronological order (1st); the main books leave it only a possibility you had better not mention around most Aes Sedai.
@63:
I believe that Gandalf found Gollum before Gollum found the Shire, and left him in the care of Legolas’ people. It wasn’t until after Legolas left for Rivendell that Gollum escaped the Woodland Elves.
But I’m no Tolkien expert, so I could be misremembering.
@65: Legolas left for Rivendell because Gollum escaped. He was sent with that message.
@Sylas: As to the Black Wind, one of the theories about it, unconfirmed by the story but with the most plausibility, is this:
Aridhol is one of the old Ogier-built cities, and therefore had a grove and a Waygate. When it became Shadar Logoth, the grove and Waygate were still there. The Waygate is an extension of the Ways, and as a living thing can be corrupted by the evil of Shadar Logoth. This also explain why the Ways only went dark relatively recently. if it was corruption formt he Taint, it SHOULD have gone bad the moment it was made, since that was the point of most contact with evil.
@SCMof2814: Yes okay that sounds so right to me. There is something very like Mashadar about the Black Wind, for me. And it explains why it seems so outside of anyone’s knowledge base or instincts, even Lan and Moriaine’s. It is something new born out of a corruption that isn’t straight from the Dark One’s hand, as it were.
That’s an interesting theory, SCMof2814. Note though that the corruption of the Ways is recent even relative to the death of Aridhol. Aridhol became Shadar Logoth around 2000 years ago, and darkness started falling in the Ways around 1000 years ago. Whether it originated from the Dark One or from Mashadar, the corruption seems to have been growing for a long time before it became noticeable.
Since we’ve decided to reveal that the source of the Black Wind never gets revealed, my favorite theory is the alien entity theory. But I can’t really talk about that till after we get past the Portal Stones at least, and maybe not until we have a more solid understanding of the World of Dreams. And the Wolf Dream. And Ishy/Moridin’s pocket dimensions within the World of Dreams.
Like, maybe the Black Wind is the form Mashadar took in a Portal Stone world, and it got into the Ways through the gate in that World’s Shadar Logoth, and then somehow, through the connection to the World of Dreams, found it’s way into the Ways near Randland’s dimension. That could account for the time delay mentioned @70.
So, I guess my post was the deleted post 67. I don’t know why it was deleted, it doesn’t seem to violate any of the rules. In case it was an automatic deletion, here it is again. With some added explanation, so it doesn’t appear mean, but prosaic:
So Lan isn’t entitled to his own opinion, and/or he shouldn’t have the same agency in his relationship as Nyneave has? He doesn’t want to have this relationship under these terms, and can’t or won’t change the problematic terms. He still wants happiness for his beloved, so he would like her to find it with someone else.
I recognize that many people have a problem with opinions, or viewpoints (see the whole drama between Elayne and Rand, because he doesn’t emphasize the superficial facet that he only makes room for her to take the throne, and doesn’t give it to her. He even acts in a way to let her take the throne, instead of giving it to her by his graces. As soon as she turns up, his people up and leave. Leaving before that would have been very bad for public order. All he is doing wrong is that hes saying that he’s giving it to her, whatever). I don’t really understand the obstinacy with which those offending opinions are seen, though. And I really think that a prosaic statement of another view,like above, isn’t offensive.
And if this is wrong,too, tell me why, please. You got my address.
Note: message edited by moderator to white out spoiler.
@72: The post at 67 was unpublished simply because it was an accidental double post–an exact repetition of the post above. If you tried to post a comment previously, it did not appear in this thread for some reason–nothing else has been unpublished; if you have further trouble posting, you can contact the webmaster address: webmaster(at)tor.com.
The third paragraph of @72 contains spoilers.
Hi there,
thanks for the feedback, I guess I messed up the posting itself :-)
Sorry about the spoiler, momentary stupidity, I guess.
@75 – The comment you were looking for was actually posted to a different article. You can find it here.
Thanks everybody. Got it on how to read the spoilers now.
Man, you came so tantalizingly close on hitting one of the //main resolutions of the book with your musings on how could Fain possibly be possessed by both Mashadar AND the Dark One.// Ahahahaha…can’t wait to see that payoff in a few years when you get to that book.
I forgot how beautiful some of Jordan’s moment of reflection were, especially in Shienar. It’s easy to remember all the crazy theories and twists and worldbuilding and cool characters, but I forget about some of these quieter moments sometimes.
@36 – “I would download it free from an online library system and hear a fantastic readers voice. You pick up on things that way too. ” – where can I get that?
Damn, how long dos it to catch up with you guys? I have to cover more threads to discuss stuff with you…